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Game & Battle Discussion
Star Wars: Empire at War
Re-Attack on Event Scoring 		 Maelstrom Last Activity 2007-12-30 10:00 AM
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DS_FiReBaLL

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Subject : Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-01 11:30 PM
Post #15854

OK, I know this was discussed before but can we try just one tournament as a W/L?  All points go towards clan standing and players are ranked by how many games they get and what their w/l ratio is or something? 

We are getting into a rut with these games that often never go beyond Tech1 because no one wants to give up points--this for many makes the tournaments not so fun.  I am just asking if we can try it one time and see how it goes.  Please give this a try just once.  Thanks for considering it.


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DS_Donovan43

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-01 11:41 PM
Post #15856 - In reply to #15854
Yes I agree. This scoring system isn't very fun. Because most players who are smart will only use fighters and thats a very boring game. The games would be much more enjoyable if it was playing win/loss. I have heard several people from other clans say this.
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DS_FiReBaLL

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-01 11:45 PM
Post #15857 - In reply to #15854
I appreciate that.  It is important that we get other clan reps to speak up on this as well. 
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qam4

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-01 11:53 PM
Post #15858 - In reply to #15856
I couldn't agree more with FiReBall and Donovan.
The scoring system as it is right now for IW prevents players to tech up and build ships.
The game was not designed to be played like that.
I also would like to see the heroes back.
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DS_FiReBaLL

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-01 11:58 PM
Post #15859 - In reply to #15854
Why not shake things up a bit.  The declining volume of clan participation is an indicator that something needs to change.
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Sithmaster

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-02 12:11 AM
Post #15860 - In reply to #15854
i think a w/l will work out really good..it shows alot more skill when people play for pionts they are more scared about lossing pionts so they dont play to there fullest..we should at least give it a try
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-(DW)-Krayt88

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-02 12:11 AM
Post #15861 - In reply to #15854
OK well first of all, I agree with you guys. Playing against an opponent who is so terrified of losing points that they don't make capital ships and when they do, makes them run away from battle when they are about to die, is extremely boring. We cant just go to a Win/Loss scenario though. It will just lead to bigger problems. A win/loss game doesnt give enough flexibility in the the rankings. a person could just win 6 games against the worst player in the event and would pretty much be sitting in the top 3. They could just disappear from the remainder of the event and nobody could touch them. Plus I don't think it will change much in the way people play. One of the reasons that people use only fighters to win is because it gets the job done fast. If its all about wins/losses then you want to get the win as fast as you can and that will probably make people do the same thing they do in events right now. If fighters showed up on the losses screen then we wouldnt have to worry about because the scoring system would be fine, but as of now only FoC shows fighters as losses. But lets take a look at this recent event. Sithmaster had the most games and the most unique opponents and is in 1st, but with a system that is primarily dominated by wins and losses he would be down in 4th which really doesnt seem fair when he was the events biggest participant. If you guys want a Space Tournament on some weekend then I would be happy to set one up for a given weekend if there is enough support. Those would be based solely on wins and losses, and would have players fighting against an opponent at random. We held one before but over half the people who signed up didnt play so I'm skeptical. Really guys, if we had some way of making fighters worth points and factoring that in then believe me, we would do it. But as of now there is no apparent way to factor fighters in unless we want to ban the use of them (which obviously makes no sense at all). If you guys have any ideas of how to make fighters worth something or at least make them used less, then please by all means, hit me up on xfire and we can discuss it.
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Asuka

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-02 4:06 AM
Post #15865 - In reply to #15854
The problem isn't fighters or the over use of them, its the scoring system. I understand that EaW doesn't list fighters or bombers as FoC does. Inverting the scoring system would force players to use bigger ships to lose less points and thus prolong games. The only problem with this is that it wont work on EaW with reference to fighters and that it's exactly the opposite extreme situation of what we have now. There are other viriables you havn't considdered. Like Mines and turrets counting towards points. The higher the enemy points per game of the better players, the more things will balance out if that factor counts more in favor of their opponents. The short answer is that unless you plan on making this event extremely unfair and keeping it as is or banning EaW in favor of FoC, there is no solution to this within sight.

If you go on win/loss only, then as Krayt said, people like J.R.K.S, Raven etc will always have the top spots and the guys who play the game the most, like Sith wont due to his lower win ratios. But have a go at a w/l tourney only and see what happens.
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DS_Commander

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-02 9:32 AM
Post #15869 - In reply to #15854
That is why we would have it not just win/loss, but also game number.  So win ratio counts as some amount and game number counts as another.  We could also have a average rating played to help make it better.
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DS_IG-88D

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-02 11:04 AM
Post #15874 - In reply to #15854
Personally i like the idea of a w/l game, cause the points system is a bit hard for me to underdstand
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-(DW)-Krayt88

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-02 9:02 PM
Post #15891 - In reply to #15874
You dont have to understand a system for it to work. Like i said, if you guys have enough support for a tournament some weekend in which wins/losses are the only things that matter then i would be happy to set it up for you but making a week event only go off of wins/losses wont solve anything, players will still only use fighter because they are cheap and you can get them quickly. What i'm looking into is a new scoring factor of game time. The longer a game the more points that are given or something to that effect. It isnt finished yet but it is in the works and could be a possible addition in the next event or 2.
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BLESS_Erik

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-03 4:10 AM
Post #15907 - In reply to #15854
You could try something like losing points as well. Right now we are on a positive point system only. If you could somehow factor in getting lots of points but also losing points it could be interesting. Like if a space station destroyed ment you lost 50 points people would be quick to upgrade it instead of leaving it tech 1 to be easy target for fighters. I think a system of a type of extremes would be good but it might difficult to find a nice balance, but we could always test it out. Say if u lost a station no matter the points it would be 50 points negative. Then people would upgrade the stations with no fear of giving the enemy too many points but instead want it as strong as possible. Same thing with capital ships. Give yourself maybe 3 points for destroying a Neb, but the enemy loses 1 point for having it destroyed. Simply, with a second variable of negative points in the equation it allows for a chance to make it a lot more balanced persay as well as a lot more fun.
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DS_FiReBaLL

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-03 8:28 AM
Post #15909 - In reply to #15854

You could also reduce the points to one or zero for a level one SS.  That might prompt people to upgrade to at least level two which means tarts and corvettes to deal with the fighter threat.

I also like the thinking of giving points for a team that does upgrade.   Meaning if you make it to a level two SS (level 3, 4, 5) you get a certain amount of points like half of the destruction value.  So this is incentive for teams to upgrade (at least they will get some points) and get out of this level one strategy rut. 


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DS_Commander

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-03 6:22 PM
Post #15925 - In reply to #15854
Why not make win/loss ratio worth alot more then points?
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-(DW)-Krayt88

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-04 2:12 AM
Post #15934 - In reply to #15925
Originally written by BLESS_Erik on 2007-06-03 3:50 AM

You could try something like losing points as well. Right now we are on a positive point system only. If you could somehow factor in getting lots of points but also losing points it could be interesting. Like if a space station destroyed ment you lost 50 points people would be quick to upgrade it instead of leaving it tech 1 to be easy target for fighters. I think a system of a type of extremes would be good but it might difficult to find a nice balance, but we could always test it out. Say if u lost a station no matter the points it would be 50 points negative. Then people would upgrade the stations with no fear of giving the enemy too many points but instead want it as strong as possible. Same thing with capital ships. Give yourself maybe 3 points for destroying a Neb, but the enemy loses 1 point for having it destroyed. Simply, with a second variable of negative points in the equation it allows for a chance to make it a lot more balanced persay as well as a lot more fun.


Making it so that people have negative scores for losing isnt going to help much, it will just make people stop playing if their ranking is good and they dont want to risk lowering it. As for the deducting of points if you lose a capital ship, that doesn't make much sense. We are looking for a way to get people to use capital ships more, not make them use them less for fear of getting points deducted. Some of you may have had the same experience I had in this last Gw, where your opponent is so terrified of giving up points when a capital ship dies that they make wounded ships run from the engagement. Needless to say, these types of games are no fun to play.

Originally written by DS_FiReBaLL on 2007-06-03 12:28 AM

You could also reduce the points to one or zero for a level one SS. That might prompt people to upgrade to at least level two which means tarts and corvettes to deal with the fighter threat.

I also like the thinking of giving points for a team that does upgrade. Meaning if you make it to a level two SS (level 3, 4, 5) you get a certain amount of points like half of the destruction value. So this is incentive for teams to upgrade (at least they will get some points) and get out of this level one strategy rut.



Reducing the points of tech 1 to O only means that people will be less likely to upgrade because they wont give away any points if they lose. As for giving points for teching up, it is a good idea in theory, but unless you are the one that loses, the station tech level doesnt appear on the end game screen. I am working on a similar solution however.

Originally written by DS_Commander on 2007-06-03 10:22 AM

Why not make win/loss ratio worth alot more then points?


Making wins/losses worth a lot just takes emphasis of the other stats which means all a person would have to do is find the weakest player they could and beat them a few times. Because the victory ratio counts for so much the low number of games they have and their poor average rating played doesn't effect them enough to hurt them for picking on a single player they know they can beat.
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Asuka

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-04 2:50 AM
Post #15935 - In reply to #15854
So why not invert the station points? They lose less points at a higher level while at the same time producing ships worth more points...

On the other hand, that might not be such a smart thing to do since it will encourage fighter and bomber rushing more to grab the points you can get from a level 1 SS...

[Edited by Asuka on 2007-06-04 2:51 AM]

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DS_Donovan43

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-04 11:24 AM
Post #15940 - In reply to #15854
Well more and more clans are deciding this is pointless. So we have to change something Krayt or pretty soon it will be down to about 3 or 4 Clans. Thats not very exciting right there, we need something simple, enjoyable and effective. Why don't we run a win loss and point system. Win/loss could be a large percentage of a persons score, say 75%.Every ship could be 1 point. That would make people less afraid to use bigger, badder ships. Of course some people would still use fighters from a tech 2 station, but if you made the point value for 1,2,3,4,5 stations all 2 points. And if you stayed at tech 1, you could even lose 2 points. If you lost and you had a tech 1 your opponent could get 2 points and you would lose 2, this would highly encourage use of higher stations, and if all ships were 1 point well then people wouldn't be as afraid to toss out those Mon cals.
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DS_Titan

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-04 11:58 AM
Post #15941 - In reply to #15854
What if we score like IW use to be. Give points for a certain level of space station, and don't make units worth points. Then ppl wouldn't worry about giving points from ships. They would just have to worry about someone attacking thier stations. And if I know some ppl that protecting thier SS wouldn't be a problem.
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DS_Commander

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-04 3:40 PM
Post #15948 - In reply to #15854

I like that Titan.  Points for the space station, like 5 points for it, no matter what tech it is, and no points for ships.  This way people will tech up and use ships because it doesn't give away more points.


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-(DW)-Krayt88

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-06 12:31 AM
Post #15976 - In reply to #15948
Having all station techs be worth the same points and no unit points is the exact same thing as just having the win/loss system and it doesnt work. We already thought of inverting station points like Asuka said, but as he stated, all that does is promote the use of fighters and bombers to destroy a station before it Upgrades and again doesnt solve anything. And Donovan, we are already at the 3 or 4 clans mark, we pretty much have been since the event started.
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BLESS_Erik

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-06 1:07 AM
Post #15977 - In reply to #15941
Originally written by DS_Titan on 2007-06-04 11:58 AM

What if we score like IW use to be. Give points for a certain level of space station, and don't make units worth points. Then ppl wouldn't worry about giving points from ships. They would just have to worry about someone attacking thier stations. And if I know some ppl that protecting thier SS wouldn't be a problem.


Originally written by Asuka on 2007-06-04 2:50 AM

So why not invert the station points? They lose less points at a higher level while at the same time producing ships worth more points...

On the other hand, that might not be such a smart thing to do since it will encourage fighter and bomber rushing more to grab the points you can get from a level 1 SS...


Nah because that just then makes people attack the station as their main focus. People will be bomber, fighter rushing in t1 without a second thought as Asuka said. However, either of these could work even with the potential to rush. Bombers take longer than fighters to make and if someone focused on bomber rush in t1 purely the other player could get the rest of the map. Also bomber attacks aren't too hard to defend against early in the game. Its later in the game you have to worry. And if you keep a corvette or 2 handy you should be fine. This seems most logical for the time being. People would just have to learn to play this way like the did in the point system to leave their station level one.

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DS_Donovan43

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-06 2:13 PM
Post #15992 - In reply to #15854
I really don't see what the problem is by making it so that all stations tech 2 or above have the same amount of points. Tech 1 could make you lose points, people would upgrade. Theres no real problem I don't think, keeping it the way it is will just make more people leave, you can shoot down every idea you would like to Krayt but eventually its gonna be just DW in this thing. Basically we have to change the rules to something or this thing will keep losing people.
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DS_Titan

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-06 2:42 PM
Post #15993 - In reply to #15854
My idea was that the stations get different point values each level. Like lvl 1 is 6 points lvl 2 is 12 , something along those lines. This way while u may be risking pointss, u have a better chance of winning cause u have access to better ships. Also we could make the mines and turrents a couple points as well.
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DS_Donovan43

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-06 7:08 PM
Post #16001 - In reply to #15854
I agree with maybe mines, not turrets as much. But I think we should take away point values for ships. This way you may keep a level 1 to give less points but the enemy will make a level 2 station to beat you.
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-(DW)-Krayt88

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Subject : RE: Re-Attack on Event Scoring
Posted : 2007-06-06 7:11 PM
Post #16003 - In reply to #15993
Originally written by DS_Donovan43 on 2007-06-06 6:13 AM

I really don't see what the problem is by making it so that all stations tech 2 or above have the same amount of points. Tech 1 could make you lose points, people would upgrade. Theres no real problem I don't think, keeping it the way it is will just make more people leave, you can shoot down every idea you would like to Krayt but eventually its gonna be just DW in this thing. Basically we have to change the rules to something or this thing will keep losing people.


Ok like I have said We are making changes to the event, only we are making ones that solve the main problem here instead of helping it. If we make Tech 1 worth the most points that just promotes the very situation we are trying to solve and doesnt make much sense. A lot of you are also assuming that because a player is Teched up they will use their new ships which is untrue. I have played people who are on tech 2 that use no tech 2 ships and if they do, they make them run away from fights when losing.

Originally written by DS_Titan on 2007-06-06 6:42 AM

My idea was that the stations get different point values each level. Like lvl 1 is 6 points lvl 2 is 12 , something along those lines. This way while u may be risking pointss, u have a better chance of winning cause u have access to better ships.


Um... Ok... That is how the system is now, so... are you agreeing with it or did you just not know that?
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